Law thru Moshe, Grace and Truth thru Jesus

[ehill3]

Jn 1:15-18 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Now, I've always wonder what the bolded phrase has meant. The reason being, is John says that grace AND TRUTH came thru Jesus...as if the Mosaic Law did not contain TRUTH. I understand it wasn't really based on Grace (though there was definitely an element of Grace in it, e.g. sacrifice for sins...instead of just death). But, I never understood why he says TRUTH too. Am I making sense?

Anyhow, I just thought about it last night, so I wanted to see if anyone has any insight on it.

Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend.

Thanks!

[bhall]

Hey ehill3,

John 1:14

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
NASU

John 1:16-18
16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
NASU

Usually I have heard this passage quoted in an attempt to support a dispensational view of the Law. If one believes that God has given one way of salvation in the Old Testament (i.e. the Jew was to keep the law) and now we (i.e. the church) are in an “age of grace” and all we have to do is believe something (creed acceptance) then it looks like John is contrasting two ages here.

This is one instance that I’m going to prefer the NASB over the NIV in its wording. If I understand this passage correctly it is saying:

I. God has given us (his people…especially the Jew here…) multiple grace upon grace as He as revealed Himself to us. In the OT God revealed Himself in many portions and in many ways (Hebrews 1:1).

II. The giving of the Law was viewed by the Jew as an act of Grace. (God used it as an instrument to reveal Himself.) Like you said, I agree that grace and truth were given in the Law.

III. Grace and Truth were REALIZED through JESUS. The Law spoke of one to come. Greater and fuller revelation has now appeared through the ministry of Jesus. He came to make the Father known.

I don’t see this passage so much as speaking against Moses as I do it speaking for the greater and fuller revelation given to us through Jesus.

Note to all:
F.Y.I. There is a message available on this website called “Making the Father known.” Good stuff.


bhall

[Eric Stephens]

EHill,

I am working on a paper regarding a proper view of the Torah. Hopefully, I can post it soon. In short, I believe John was not disparaging the law or Moses. It is more like saying, "the law is great but Jesus is even better!" I realize that you may want a more substative answer and I promise one is forth coming but for now I hope this helps.

Eric

PS: Remember John's readers thought highly of the Torah so part A of the statement is a compliment!

[Eric Stephens]

EHill,

As I said in a previous post...I am working on something more substative but I wanted to post a few scriptures for consideration. The scripture as a whole should form our view of the law and the scripture as a whole should be used to understand any specific phrase in the scripture. In otherwords, when reading John we have to consider the concepts that the original audience had inorder to determine how they would have interpreted it. To that end, I am posting a few scriptures to help form our view.

Ps 1:1-3 (delighting in the law)

Blessed is the man
who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked
or stand in the way of sinners
or sit in the seat of mockers.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
and on his law he meditates day and night.
3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither.
Whatever he does prospers.

Ps 19:7-14 (the law revives the soul)

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the LORD are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the LORD are radiant, giving light to the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the LORD are sure and altogether righteous. 10 They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the comb. 11 By them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.
12 Who can discern his errors? Forgive my hidden faults. 13 Keep your servant also from willful sins; may they not rule over me. Then will I be blameless, innocent of great transgression.
14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

Ps 37:28-31 (the righteous have the law in their hearts)
28 For the LORD loves the just
and will not forsake his faithful ones.

They will be protected forever,
but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;
29 the righteous will inherit the land
and dwell in it forever.

30 The mouth of the righteous man utters wisdom,
and his tongue speaks what is just.
31 The law of his God is in his heart;
his feet do not slip.

Ps 40:6-9 (scriptures speaking of Jesus says the law is within his heart)

6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but my ears you have pierced ;
burnt offerings and sin offerings
you did not require.
7 Then I said, "Here I am, I have come —
it is written about me in the scroll.
8 I desire to do your will, O my God;
your law is within my heart."

9 I proclaim righteousness in the great assembly;
I do not seal my lips,
as you know, O LORD.

Ps 94:12 (the law teaches us)

12 Blessed is the man you discipline, O LORD,
the man you teach from your law ;

Ps 119:1 (All of Psalm 119 speaks profoundly about the law)

Blessed are they whose ways are blameless,
who walk according to the law of the LORD.

Ps 119:18 (perhaps we should pray like this!)
18 Open my eyes that I may see
wonderful things in your law .

Ps 119:20
20 My soul is consumed with longing
for your laws at all times.

Ps 119:33-37

Teach me, O LORD, to follow your decrees;
then I will keep them to the end.
34 Give me understanding, and I will keep your law
and obey it with all my heart.
35 Direct me in the path of your commands,
for there I find delight.
36 Turn my heart toward your statutes
and not toward selfish gain.
37 Turn my eyes away from worthless things;
preserve my life according to your word.

Ps 119:41-48 (This portion says the law allows him to walk in freedom “James said something similar”)

May your unfailing love come to me, O LORD,
your salvation according to your promise;
42 then I will answer the one who taunts me,
for I trust in your word.
43 Do not snatch the word of truth from my mouth,
for I have put my hope in your laws.
44 I will always obey your law ,
for ever and ever.
45 I will walk about in freedom,
for I have sought out your precepts.
46 I will speak of your statutes before kings
and will not be put to shame,
47 for I delight in your commands
because I love them.
48 I lift up my hands to your commands, which I love,
and I meditate on your decrees.

Ps 119:72
72 The law from your mouth is more precious to me
than thousands of pieces of silver and gold.

Ps 119:77
77 Let your compassion come to me that I may live,
for your law is my delight.

Ps 119:97-103

Oh, how I love your law !
I meditate on it all day long.
98 Your commands make me wiser than my enemies,
for they are ever with me.
99 I have more insight than all my teachers,
for I meditate on your statutes.
100 I have more understanding than the elders,
for I obey your precepts.
101 I have kept my feet from every evil path
so that I might obey your word.
102 I have not departed from your laws,
for you yourself have taught me.
103 How sweet are your words to my taste
104 I gain understanding from your precepts; therefore I hate every wrong path.
105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.
106 I have taken an oath and confirmed it, that I will follow your righteous laws.
107 I have suffered much; preserve my life, O LORD, according to your word.
108 Accept, O LORD, the willing praise of my mouth, and teach me your laws.

Ps 119:142-144 (Eric this one is important for your question)
142 Your righteousness is everlasting
and your law is true.
143 Trouble and distress have come upon me,
but your commands are my delight.
144 Your statutes are forever right;
give me understanding that I may live.

Ps 119:162-168
62 I rejoice in your promise
like one who finds great spoil.
163 I hate and abhor falsehood
but I love your law .
164 Seven times a day I praise you
for your righteous laws.
165 Great peace have they who love your law ,
and nothing can make them stumble.
166 I wait for your salvation, O LORD,
and I follow your commands.
167 I obey your statutes,
for I love them greatly.
168 I obey your precepts and your statutes,
for all my ways are known to you.

Ps 119:174-176
174 I long for your salvation, O LORD,
and your law is my delight.
175 Let me live that I may praise you,
and may your laws sustain me.
176 I have strayed like a lost sheep.
Seek your servant,
for I have not forgotten your commands.

Jer 31:32-36 (The same scripture that mention the New Covenant says the decrees will not vanish and the law will be in Israel’s heart and mind)
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD."I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD, 'because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
35 This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar — the LORD Almighty is his name: 36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight, "declares the LORD, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me."

Ezek 36:22-29 (This says the Spirit is going to move us to follow the decrees and keep the laws)
23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.

24 "'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness.

Matt 5:17-19 (I can’t believe an honest interpretation of this verse will take the phrase “until everything is accomplished” to mean Jesus earthly ministry...if that were true Heaven and Earth would have disappeared)

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 10:25-28

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26 "What is written in the Law ?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27 He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live

I know this was a long post...But honestly does it begin to reshape a some what negative view of the law? I am working on a larger paper that will address how we got to the place we are in now. I also hope to be able to address the "problem" scriptures regarding being "under the law". My hearts desire is to properly discern the believer's relationship to the Mosaic revelation from both a Jewish and Gentile perspective. This task is daunting because of centuries of misunderstandings and bad interpretation. Honestly, I am excited with what I know is REAL REVELATION but I am taking the time to develop it and hopefully articulate it in a way that discourages missunderstanding. Have no fear...I am still a gentile and have not been Judaized...I am still eating pork and walking in the Power of the Spirit but I am now percieving the law differently than I have in years past!

Love

Eric

PS I hope to get the paper out to everyone in the next few weeks!

[ehill3]

Thanks Brad and E. I look forward to getting a copy of that paper. It would be so easy to misinterpret that Scripture if you didn't understand the Word as a whole...hmm...Too many good things written about the Law to view it any other way than GOOD. As Paul says in Romans 7...it's not the Law which is bad...but mankind.

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

So, what we couldn't do, Jesus did for us. Nevertheless, we now uphold God's Law through the power of His Spirit...

Ro 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Then, of course:

Ro 3:27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Anyhow, I love it. God is so incredibly wise. Have a wonderful weekend. We're heading out of town with some friends so I'll be out of commission for a few days. Talk to you all soon![/quote]

[Eric Stephens]

EHill,

Talk about out of comission! I haven't been on the board in a while and I missed a total of 41 posts. I finished the paper I was working on so....I am back. The paper was titled Law Dawg You should have it in your email by now. After I finish editing it all (with everyone's help) I will post it on-line for download. It is 43 pages and over 26000 words...That was alot for only 6 days. Now everyone should know why I haven't been posting lately.

Love

E

[Matthew Perot]

We've ressurected an old post that we thought of during a Monday Night bible study.

The element of the verse mentioned in John 1:17 was that there is no contrasting element of "but" between Moshe giving the Law and "grace and truth" coming through Jesus. The key to understanding this scripture is to see it in light of the scripture around it.

John 1:16-17
16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
NIV

It's the statement of "one blessing after another." The statement in v17 is stating one true element upon another.

The other issue is the audience to whom he's speaking to and about.

There was no doubt to the audience, Jews, saw the Law as the source of grace and truth. What John was doing was giving Jesus creditibility as God by comparing him to the Word. Hence, v14, the Word became flesh.

Perot

[geary]

Hey guys,
Shalom in the faith and enjoyed seeing you in BR. I thought I'd reply to E. Hill's comments on the law.
I've spent the better part of the last 5 yrs. studying this topic and unfortunately like many Christians I've ended up on both sides of the proverbial "ditch." It's hard to be "balanced" in this area. The fascination with the law and Jewish customs is so very enticing. I've spoken with Eric about it, at great length. As he and I discovered while spending 3 wks in Israel bouncing many of these questions around for days.
I am qualifying my comments b/c this is an intense subject and many divisions are happening in the body of Messiah over the matter. Suffice it to say that after spending practically 18mons. now in a school who's dean is a Messianic Jew. I've posed this question to Dr. Michael Brown. He is probably the foremost expert on Jewish evangelism in the world. He and I dialogued over the matter a few months ago. He said simply, "The Jews need a living witness! They need to see the Spirit of God moving in a Christian's life in power!" He went on to say that Jews have not really ever seen "community" amongst the christian believers. They need the Spirit.
While, I understand E Hill's comment is a simple comparative statement about the law. Dr. Brown went on to tell us in class that he has lost countless friends who have slipped into religion and have no real interest in a Spirit filled walk over the fascination with the law. Ultimately, he said the law: fascinates, but ultimately suffocates in the end. He means a person's spiritual walk. Yes, there are numerous "Davidic" statements in the Psalms and even the Gospels that would lend credence to the idea that the law should be given a proper place. Yes, it should have a proper understanding, but the laws of JESUS are greater. He emphasized the Spirit! So did all of the apostles of Messiah. Messiah's bloody sacrifice was the pinnacle of that fulfillment. Think about it, Jews no longer can blood sacrifice anymore due to the temple's destruction. Jesus has ushered in a "new" priestly order! Read Hebrews very carefully. The author is clear that Jesus and His priesthood is abundantly more powerful than the previous "order." My comments come with 5yrs of wrestling with the matter and even standing in the "divide" over the law's proper place. Simply put, my heart is to win the Jews over to Messiah and the "law" want get them there, only the life giving Spirit. As Dr. Brown said about the Messianic movement since the 70's, " they started out to win some fellow Jews, only to become more ceremonial religious." They haven't won many to Jesus, and the Jews aren't impressed with their prayer shawls and shofar blowing!" They need a demonstration of the Spirit. The Gifts of the Spirit in power abiding in "apostolic community." Christians who will lay down their lives for the Gospel in humility and nameless, title less, wholehearted love. The kind of Christians who will work all night to build a roof for someone, the kind who will secretly bless, and secretly pray in the Spirit for them! My very best in Messiah to the readers of my comments. Shalom in YESHUA!

Gdubluvin Messiah,
Geary

[Eric Stephens]

Geary's post contains valuable information that has been gleaned from years of experience. I am thankful he posted it. However, the question we have been wrestling with and that this post deals with is not a method of evangelism based on the law, rather, it is what does a proper view of the law look like today? There are many posts on this topic and most (from the staff) are aimed at correcting a misunderstanding that the law is bad or irrelevant. My heart in this matter as a Spirit-filled, service oriented Gentile has nothing to do with observing the Law or encouraging others to do so! My heart is two fold: I want to be instructed by the whole cannon of scripture and I want to allow for an awareness that the Jewish cultural identity is defined by the Law. This is not a righteousness or legalism issue for me. It is an issue relating to how Jewish can you remain and be a believer in Jesus? It is ironic since Jesus was Jewish that we even have to ask that and yet we do!

Nobody should take this post as me correcting any of the previous posts. I am only clarifying at this point because every time we discuss this topic the default position of many of the readers is one in which they feel the need to emphasis that we are not saved by the Law or that the New Covenant takes us to a higher or better place. None of that is in dispute and it never has been. The real question is how do we as "Christians" properly view the Law and how does that relate to a Jewish population that rightly believes their cultural identity is defined in the Law.

I can not accept that the is Law bad or has passed away by virtue of being fulfilled. (and I have read Hebrews, Galatians, and Romans many times). Nor do I see the Law as saving or a system of righteousness. And yet it remains useful for teaching, rebuking, and training in righteousness. I invite believers to consider the question and fight the urge to return to the default paradigms that no one is really questioning. We all agree, here, that we are saved by grace through faith apart from the Law.... and that the Spirit is the means by which all God's work is done.

Love

E

[Eric Stephens]

I have been a fan of Dr. Brown for some time. I truly believe that Geary is privileged to be able to benefit from his counsel and wisdom. I also agree with Geary's assessment that Dr. Brown is the foremost expert on Jewish Evangelism. Dr. Brown wrote a book titled OUR HANDS ARE STAINED WITH BLOOD, The tragic Story of the "Church" and the Jewish People. The following is an excerpt from the Dr. Michael Brown's book:

I understand fully that in the Lord, all believers, both Jewish and Gentile, are free from bondage to the Law. Jesus is our justification, our righteousness and the Perfecter of our faith, We must begin in the Spirit and continue in the Spirit. We can't add anything to that. But what does this have to do with leading a biblical Jewish life? Where does the Word say to Jewish believers, "If you want to follow the Lord, you must abandon your people and your Law?" Is this really a biblical position? Let's go back to the Gospels. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, but to fulfill them, (Mat, 5:17-20).

That is a complete, unaltered quote! I didn't even add the italics, he did. The previous quote came from pages 81-82 of a chapter called The Inquisition Isn't Over. The chapter deals with the "Church's" obsession with forcing Jews to abandon Jewish customs in order to prove their Christianity. His clear position on this issue is the same as mine... the practice is unBiblical. Here are some other direct quotes from the same chapter:

What would we think of a presidential candidate who assured his voters that he would only uphold the requirements and fulfill the goals of the Constitution and never abolish our country's customs and laws, yet two years after his election, plunged the country into complete anarchy? Would this be fulfillment of the Constitution or abolition of the Constitution? It is the same with the Law of God. If Jesus promised to fulfill it but instead abolished it, then He would be a liar and not the Son of God. Do you know that this is one of the greatest objections to the gospel that religious Jews have had?

He goes on to say:

Many Christians believe that Jesus annulled the Law and in its place He gave us a New Covenant. But that is not what the Scriptures teach.

The next quote is the last that I will provide because anyone reading this post should go and read this book by Geary's dean (Dr. Micheal Brown), but He puts into words the thesis of the paper that I wrote and the heart of my feelings about a proper view of the Torah. Ironically, because of the complexity of the subjects I tackle I am often misquoted and apparently Dr. Brown suffers from the same problem. Here is a another direct quote from page 83:

Of Course, observance of the Law does not make us more righteous, more loved or more spiritual. Through the cross our sins are forgiven, and the Spirit leads us in paths of life. But where is it written that believers, in particular Jewish believers, are forbidden to observe the Law? Are we free to break the Law but not free to keep the Law? Where is it written that the Spirit always leads us away from and against the Law? Let's get more specific: Where do the Scriptures clearly and decisively make Sunday into the Sabbath? (Forget about later Church tradition. What does the Bible say?) Then why are Jewish believers who set aside Saturday for Sabbath worship considered divisive? Where does God say to forget the biblical feasts? Then why are Jewish believers who celebrate the feasts instead of later, man-made holidays accused of going back under the Law? Where does the Word teach that Jews must become Gentiles to be saved? We have really forgotten our roots!

The next page (number 84) goes on to make exactly the same points I did in Law Dawg (the paper I wrote in 2005 on this subject). Dr. Michael Brown is an insightful, well studied man who obviously loves the Jewish people (he is Jewish) and understands, as I do, that the law forms the cultural identity of the Jewish people and they must be allowed to identify with it or they would perish through assimilation! Nobody in my ministry believes that a person is saved by the Law... We just believe that it has not been abolished! It remains useful for teaching, correcting, rebuking, and training in righteousness as well as forming the basis for the Jewish cultural identity that makes them identifiable and distinctive as Jews.

Love

Eric