John 5:25-30

[JHall]

John 5:25-29 (My question is derived from vs. 28-29)

25 “And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it’s here now, when the dead will hear my voice—the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live. 26 The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son. 27 And he has given him authority to judge everyone because he is the Son of Man.[d] 28 Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, 29 and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment. 30 I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.

Is Jesus speaking about His last coming here? If so, what happens when people die in the mean time as they haven't been judged yet? If the dead has not been judged yet by God/Jesus, then when someone dies right now, who determines where they should spend eternity in the mean time?

can someone help fill in the gaps here because I think I have managed to thoroughly confuse myself? Thanks!!

[Mandy Wakefield]

28 Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, 29 and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment. 30 I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.

Is Jesus speaking about His last coming here?

Yes. I believe it is speaking of the coming of Christ.

If so, what happens when people die in the mean time as they haven't been judged yet? If the dead has not been judged yet by God/Jesus, then when someone dies right now, who determines where they should spend eternity in the mean time?

This passage is not stating that the dead are not being judged. Judgment occurs at various times and levels and the 1 Peter 4 even says that it starts with the family of God (which is to our benefit--better to be judged daily and have an opportunity to repent). Jesus has been given all judgment (John 5:21-23) and determines where you go upon death based on if he knew you or not (Matthew 7). The Bible is clear that upon death you are either in the presence of God (Believers--2 cor 5) or in hades a place of torment being held for further judgement (nonbelievers--luke 16 as well as angels who sinnned--2 Pet 2:4). There will be a final judgement where every person (good or bad) will stand before God's judgment seat (in resurrected bodies designed for eternal life) and give an account for their life. Those who were obedient will rule and reign with Jesus forever, and those who were disobedient will get a second death in the lake of fire.

Romans 14:9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a]

Rev 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

What's the point of the final judgment if heaven/hell has already been determined?

Where you spend eternity has already been determined upon death. Just how much you are rewarded (Believers) or tormented (Non Believers) is determined when each person gives an account for his life. That final judgement is when every single thing is set right so that God is all in all.

1 Cor 15

24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[c] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

hope this helps!
mandy

[JHall]

Thanks Mandy!!

SO more questions I have which will go deeper into the topic

When I was young, I experienced a lot of "paranormal" activity which honestly came most nights. I saw things, heard things, heard voices when no one was around, saw people etc. And of course it was all during the night so its not like it was from a television being left on. Why or what is it that I experienced? I grew up hearing from others that "Ghosts" were all demons-but how come when I saw them they looked like people? They seemed bent on getting my attention and making me fear them.

Not long ago I was reading Luke 24. Which reads as below:

33-34They didn't waste a minute. They were up and on their way back to Jerusalem. They found the Eleven and their friends gathered together, talking away: "It's really happened! The Master has been raised up—Simon saw him!"
35Then the two went over everything that happened on the road and how they recognized him when he broke the bread.

36-41While they were saying all this, Jesus appeared to them and said, "Peace be with you." They thought they were seeing a ghost and were scared half to death. He continued with them, "Don't be upset, and don't let all these doubting questions take over. Look at my hands; look at my feet—it's really me. Touch me. Look me over from head to toe. A ghost doesn't have muscle and bone like this." As he said this, he showed them his hands and feet. They still couldn't believe what they were seeing. It was too much; it seemed too good to be true.

41-43He asked, "Do you have any food here?" They gave him a piece of leftover fish they had cooked. He took it and ate it right before their eyes.

What I found interesting was that the disciples were afraid because they thought they were seeing a ghost. And Jesus, reading their thoughts, replied "...If I were a ghost I would not have flesh and bone." Jesus didn't say "there are no ghosts and why are you thinking these things?

Do you think that ghosts and demons are one in the same? Or are they truly spirits allowed to come up from the earth from their "holding place" until the final judgement?

My theory in reading the scriptures in John was that perhaps the spirit world hadn't gone through judgement yet, and I wondered if it could be that spirits were allowed to roam the earth from their "holding place" (also assuming hades is in the center of earth) until judgement.-(of course assuming they ARE spirits of people and not demons giving the appearance of people.) I wondered if it were that the believers would be with Jesus in heaven and the non-believers could be the ones roaming the earth since Hades is thought to be in the center of earth.

The scriptures you shared with me threw that theory out and helped me understand that we are always being judged in this life and we will have different times of judgement upon death. Thanks for helping me understand!

Sorry kids are going crazy and I'm afraid this didn't come out as fluently as I wanted. But I think you get the idea of what I'm trying to say.

[Mandy Wakefield]

My knowledge on this subject is really pretty limited to what the Word says. So I'll do my best with that and allow others who may know more on the subject to jump in.

Why or what is it that I experienced?

I've never had this experience and so I really can't answer.

I grew up hearing from others that "Ghosts" were all demons-but how come when I saw them they looked like people?

The Bible does not state that ghosts are demons or give the origin of demons. In fact the word "ghost" only appears in the gospels and funny enough every time it refers to a time when the disciples saw Jesus. The word "ghost" is better translated "pneuma" which means "spirit." The Jews understood that living beings had spirits which were eternal. A spirit without a physical body is what we call a ghost. Sometimes the Word says "evil spirit" and other times it says "demon." It was a common practice of pagan nations to "conjure up underworld spirits" and was considered wickedness in the eyes of God. Even Saul had a witch bring up Samuel's ghost/spirit. So it's obvious this happened before the cross. I suspect the reason it's common to believe that ghosts are demons is b/c after the cross, all of the believers in paradise went to be with Christ in heaven. Prior to the cross, they had not yet ascended to be in the presence of God but were on the side (paradise) of Hades that was not in torment.

What I found interesting was that the disciples were afraid because they thought they were seeing a ghost

The disciples would have been afraid of seeing a ghost/spirit b/c they knew that God was clear NOT to seek out the spirit of the dead. If someone was coming to them from the dead, this would have been considered a fearful thing. (I'm sure the story of Saul and Samuel and the Witch of Endor would have come to their minds) And they hadn't fully figured out Jesus yet, so seeing Him walk on water would have been something a live person couldn't do and when they saw him in Luke 24, it would have been the first time they every came in contact with a resurrected body. (since Jesus is the first man to ever receive a resurrected body even to this day)

Do you think that ghosts and demons are one in the same?

I don't know if all present day ghosts/spirits are demons, but I would say that I have a hard time reconciling that present day ghosts/spirits are believers/good/part of God's kingdom (b/c the spirits of the dead in Christ are with Christ). In Rev 16 it talks about "spirits of demons" associated with false prophets. The origin of the word "demon" means spirit or evil spirits of the devil. No where in the Bible is seeing spirits/ghosts associated with a good thing (except the transfiguration when Moses and Elijah appear--but this was for a specific purpose and PRIOR to the cross).

Or are they truly spirits allowed to come up from the earth from their "holding place" until the final judgement?

When the Word states that the angels that sinned and are being held for judgement, that does not mean every spiritual power that works for the enemy is in hades. Those were angels who defected from God. I don't have the impression that demons ever worked for God and defected. The Word makes it clear that demons are still very much on the earth and we are supposed to drive them out. Even when we drive them out, they are not yet sent to hell. (Matt 12:44 says if an evil spirit can leave a man and then return to swept house bringing with it seven other spirits) So demons are allowed to roam the earth not yet judged, but knowing full well that judgment is coming!

I wondered if it were that the believers would be with Jesus in heaven and the non-believers could be the ones roaming the earth since Hades is thought to be in the center of earth.

The Bible gives no reason to believe that non-believers are allowed to roam the earth.

Luke 16 makes these things clear:

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

The non believer upon death goes to a place of torment and is not allowed to roam the earth either to torment or to convince others to repent.

This is the best I can do!
mandy

[Eric Stephens]

Wow! Mandy,

I think you did an excellent job! You have paid attention in church all these years... some of these discussions go all the way back to Lafayette days

Jenn,

I really have very little to add to what Mandy said, other than, these things:

1. The disciples could have thought they say a werewolf coming to them on the water and that would not mean that werewolves existed! It would only mean they were familiar with the concept.

2. Also, the absence or presence of Faith determines your holding place (ie hades, or the presence of the Father) until the day of judgment. True faith credits us with right standing before God even before we face the judgment in a literal sense. The absence of faith and therefore right standing means a person is condemned already and goes to Hades to await the Lake of Fire after judgment.

3. Lastly, Satan masquerades as an angel of light at times (2 Cor 11:14) so it is not a stretch to think demons can appear in various forms. In fact the context of 2 Cor 11:14 suggests it. I have heard many testimonies of people seeing something beautiful and maybe even being seduced by it only to have its true nature reveal as ugly and beastly (demonic).

With all of these extra biblical experiences, I have this advice. If it produces fear rebuke it (fear is of the devil) and do not worry about the details (Satan is a mater of deception). Enemy's of God are subject to the name of Jesus. I love you and thanks for participating on the board.