Theological Controversies

[geary]

Shalom my friends at the "O.L.C." How are you guys doing? I thought I'd give ya a few topics of interest that we are openly debating in my class this semester. I have a class entitled "Theological Controversies." In the class we have chosen 10 topics. Each week the class meets we must systematically debate the "for" and "against" side. It's allot of fun and is done with a loving attitude. So I'll throw out a few for open discussion with you guys: Women in Ministry, in particular Women behind the Pulpit, 2. Authority of Scripture as it pertains to all other religious books 3. War, should Christians be apart of any military or personal conflict involving weaponry? Those are just a few. I'll give you guys feed back as to how the topics are being defended.....The forum in class is wonderful and allows for a "team" discussion on these topics with the professor being the moderator. Well, shalom my bros. and sisters. Hope this gets the message board going on these 3 topics......Many blessings in Messiah....In our class we have already figured out that most theological topics are more ardently bantered about between differing Christians than Christians and the "lost." My exercise in giving you guys these topics is to get your minds off of bantering one another but to have you thinking in terms of how a "lost" individual might think on them. Or would they think you're crazy? We need to be "salt" and "light." Go for it. Maybe come up with ways in which you would have dialogue with a lost person at a coffee house or on the job. I know it sounds crazy "practicing" what you might say. However, we don't mind practicing football, basketball, or underwater ballet. Ok. maybe not the latter but you get my point...Shalom and have fun..............

Geary
gdubluvinmessiah

[Eric Stephens]

G-Dub,

Your post seemed to have arrived during a time of severe sickness (flu outbreak) in the church. These are the kind of questions I am asked regularly on Wednesdays. I want to give the flock a chance to answer a few before I weigh in... so by posting here it will move the thread up in the order again and perhaps catch their attention. LCMF, come on guys represent! What do you think about Geary's questions? Geary, it may help if you pick one of the topics and start with your view and or concern.

Love

Eric

[Stephen Richards]

I tell ya Elvis. You are clever. Tryin' to get us to do your homework. That whole Tom Sawyer thing. OK. Because I love you I will consider these weighty issues. I am a weighty guy!
I used to love debate class. Taking either side of the issue opens up your mind to what the other guy is thinking. Besides. If you are going to Israel you better learn the art of strong debate. Love you and yours Geary.

[nicholas]

On the topic of women behind the pulpit, I used to think that if there was a woman behind a pulpit it was b/c the men weren't doing their job. But I have this to offer, when some followers of "the way" came up to Paul to tell them about who by and how Jesus was being preached in hopes of getting his approval to stop them, he told them "At least he is being preached!" Philippians 1:15-18. I would have to take that same stance here as far as their ability to do it. Couple of other things:
I do believe that men are wired in a way that makes being a shepherd and in charge of a flock of people easier than it may be for most women but I sure as heck wouldn't stand in the way of a spirit filled woman who was driven to preach the word, (Joyce Meyer)
lastly, I believe that its better, if a woman is behind the pulpit, for her to have the support of a Godly husband just as I believe a husband should have the support of a Godly wife if he is behind the pulpit.

[lyndie]

I don't think it's a problem for a Christian to use a weapon when involved in military conflict, in fact, I see it in the Bible. I believe that wars are necessary and that Christians aren't and shouldn't be exempt from enlisting. As far as using a weapon in personal conflict, let's say that I was home alone with my 8 month old daughter and some guy broke into our house. I wouldn't feel bad at all about grabbing a "weapon" to use, if necessary, for our protection. Is it OK for women to walk around with pepper spray, or better yet, a tazor gun in their purse "just in case?" What does the law say? In some states tazor guns are illegal, as are hand guns and other weapons of choice. In my opinion it's just not a smart idea for everyone to be walking around with a weapon. People react too quickly and irreversible things can happen.

As a woman I'm kind of biased to the "woman behind a pulpit" issue. I think if the woman is called by God for that role then who should stop her? Is she called by God for that role? That would be the better question. Is Joyce Meyer called for that role? I think so. Are most women? Clearly not.

I think that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God - Genesis to Revelation - and everything else can be used to glean truths and to gain knowledge from, but not necessarily to be revered/viewed as Gods scriptures given to man. Like my pastor says: "Chew up the meat and spit out the bones."


What do you think? I'll be interested in hearing how your discussion goes. Thanks for the questions. Loved them.

[bhall]

Hi Geary.

I haven’t put a great deal of trust in anything I’ve heard a t.v. preacher say for some time, -but in regard to the authority of scripture vs. other books – 2 statements I heard several years ago have always stayed with me:

1) Anything CONTRARY to scripture should be rejected as untrue.

2) Anything revealed in addition to scripture (i.e. extra-biblical) should NOT be binding (BUT it may also be TRUE).


As such, I wouldn’t have a problem with a Christian preacher quoting from various writers on a Sunday morning etc. but I wouldn’t recognize them as having the same level of authority as the Bible.


BHall

[Matthew Perot]

What's happening G-diddy in the Beit,

Thanks for the opportunity for "discussion", as me and my spouse call it.

Women in Ministry, in particular Women behind the Pulpit

The scriptures have always supported Women in Ministry and I think it helps to define Ministry, 5-fold or in general servanthood.

As usual, I like to start in Genesis and get God's original "function" for a woman, man's helpmeet.

Gen 2:18

18 The Lord God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
NIV

This helper was to be united with her husband in everyway, that God's "call" given to Adam would be her call as well. Eve was called to help Adam rule over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air and the beast of the field. She was later named by Adam, Mother of the Living = Eve.

The Lord's purpose of a woman was that she could do the same things Adam did as an assisting role. What God's function was not, was for her to be in a position of authority over a man, this is where the fall of mankind originated. Eve chose what direction the union of her and Adam were to go.

Now, in saying this, it's obvious with other examples in the word (Sarah, Zipporah, Jael and more importantly Deborah) that women can have the correct prospective when their husbands/leadership do not. So, what makes Deborah different that Jezebel? Deborah was called by God to lead a nation when men, chose by God before her, rejected the call. Did Deborah have the abilities, yes, did she do a good job, yes. Jezebel, on the other hand, pursued her own selfish ambition and led the existing King and nation away from God.

So, what's the balance? How do we apply the word to this topic?

#1 The "function" of the Scriptures is to preserve Life
#2 A women's function is to be unified with her husband (Jesus / a man) as a corresponding or complimentary helper.

When it pertains to a woman being in 5-fold ministry, the obvious question is, "Did God call you to be in this position?". I would ask this same question to any male who told me of their desire to be in 5-fold ministry. Bottom line if God called you, then he will provide the anointing and power to do it.

I will not box God in and say that a woman could never be called into "Ministry", however, within the biblical pattern it is a rarity.

The ministry that we're all called to, male and female, is the ministry of reconciliation in whatever means Jesus is telling you perform it today.

[geary]

Shalom Life Changing friends.
It's been a few weeks since that original post. Unfortunately Steve I wasn't debating on those 3 topics. Actually, there are 10 topics this trimester up for debate. I only gave you guys 3 to ponder. Dr. Joe who leads our class allows for a 5 min. opening argument from each side of the debate. Then a 5 min. closing argument. After each side takes there turn questions from the class are allowed to be asked of each debate team. It's really a great forum. On the topic of "Women in Ministry" it was heavily debated and it received the most student fan fare. I will post to you my notes from the debate in a couple days. I am on 2 debate teams and I'm not saying what the topics are until they are over as to not sway you guys to give me any help. However, I'll follow up with you guys the week after my presentation is over. Tonight, my debate team meets to discuss our topic for debate this week.
The class has been an inward challenge and enlightening process to skim away the "dross" of my faith while solidifying what needs to remain as pillars of the faith. My "love" for my fellow servants of Messiah has increased and more unity has come from my time here at the school. My burden for the "lost" sheep of the house of Israel burns. My heart for seeing folks saved and set ablaze for the coming Messiah is an all consuming fire in my inner man. This burning desire for the lost is weaving its way in the tapestry of my family as they too are hungering to serve others and be a witness here in NC and in the future in Israel.
The classic arguments within the body of Christ don't consume me as much as the classic arguments that the "Lost" have with Christians. Such as the Authority of Scripture, Can you be gay and Christian, or why the holocaust? These are interesting questions to be able to have an answer for and ready when a lost person asks you. A question I have for my friends and within my family are on a different plain of life. Are we living such a holy and spirit-filled life of humility and power that the lost would want what we have? I'm all for theological controversies as long as they produce in ones heart a hungering for righteousness that produces Godly fruit: i.e. signs, wonders, miracles, daily increasing in the fruits of the Spirit. Argument for argument's sake will be burned up in the fires of the Lord and want stand. However, a living and loving saint interceding for the lost and laying hands on the sick in Jesus name. Visiting the prisons, the orphanages, the nursing homes, the streets, the colleges, the crack houses, and the like will withstand the fire of the LORD. My life is learning a new concept: preach very hard and occasionally use words if Spirit-led. However, be rich in humility and guard ones heart against spiritual pride or elitism. Shine forth your light of JESUS always seeking ways to bring Him glory.
Many blessings "Life Changers." I'll post my notes from class soon as well as a summary of my upcoming presentation. Shalom in your homes.

[Stephen Richards]

You are in an intense time of learning. Everything you are taking in will be recalled out on the battlefield. I believe the key to everything you said is "Spirit Led". It is good to have a quiver full of arrows but it sure is great o know where to shoot. Love you Geary.

[darrenjschumaker]

I'm an infrequent poster on these items -- I think mostly because I am around computers all day I stay away from them when I can -- but my old friend GDub has brought me out of hiding. Geary -- we(Angie and I) love you and miss you and your family very much. Your wife is an awesome woman of God and tell her we said hi.

My two cents:

Item 1
Women in Ministry, in particular Women behind the Pulpit
The Scripture has many stories of awesome women of God serving as examples of His goodness (Eve, Miriam, Ruth, Naomi, Deborah, Esther, and on it goes) -- but the more specific question of women in leadership (behind the pulpit) is less obvious. Deborah, in Judges 4 is called a prophetess, which seems to be a recognition of her authority to speak God's word -- surely many other women and men in the Scriptures prophesied but not all were named as prophets or prophetesses. She is also described as leading (or judging) Israel at the time. Either interpretation is a clear sign of her authority to lead God's chosen people. Later in the same chapter, Deborah relays the command of God to Barak, that he is to take 10,000 men and do battle against Sisera, the commander of Jabin's army. He (Barak)agrees to do it, but with conditions, that she go with him. Deborah agrees, but God speaks through her that Barak will gain no honor from his fight and that a woman will gain the honor of killing God's enemy. I think Barak's answer demonstrates the kind of men and the state of their faith within Israel at the time. I think this further shows women can/have/do fill the role of leader of God's people -- though the standard normally set throughout Scripture is for the man to fill the role -- that which he was designed for. However, that requires obedience by the man. In the absence of obedience by the man, God's will/plan will not be thwarted He will use those who are willing.

In short, women behind the pulpit (in leadership positions) would be atypical but it is not without example supported in Scripture.


I've got some thoughts on Item 3 -- Christians in warfare, but would like to take some time to fully think it through before posting on that.

[Eric Stephens]

Women in ministry, particularly behind the pulpit:

One of the problems in answering this question (for me) is the modern misconception of what being in ministry is. Biblical ministry is service. Coming from that standpoint not only can women be in ministry but they must be! The prevailing view for most seems to be that what happens behind a pulpit, i.e. preaching is “being in ministry”. I do not accept that premise at all. My experience has taught me that 5 percent of service to the body of Christ occurs behind the pulpit and ninety-five percent occurs at other times and places while caring for the sheep. I have no problem with a woman preaching, prophesying, or even teaching. I do, however, have a concern with a woman operating as the authoritative head of the local church in any of the 5 fold (pastor, teacher, evangelist, apostle, and prophet) ministry capacities. While I understand that this is a debatable matter, I am personally convinced that the scriptures teach against this concept.

The scripture presents man as the head of woman. This concept is especially true in marriage (Ephe 5:23) but is also true for the entire creation:

1 Cor 11:3 “ Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God

”

1 Cor 11:8-10 “For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.”

In my understanding this doesn’t relegate women to a second class role. It simply means that the final seat of authority should rest with a male figure because this is the way God designed it. When the scripture says, “the head of woman is man…” this just means that man is in authority over woman. This scenario reminds me very much of the role of a Vice President in relation to the President.

There are some other scriptures that usually trouble people because at first glance they seem archaic or chauvinistic to our modern sensibilities. If you look at them in their context, though, I believe they are not chauvinistic at all; but rather, they are designed to preserve a Godly sense of order. Look at these:

1 Tim 2:9-12
9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

This passage along with another in the book of 1 Corinthians could wrongly be interpreted to mean that women should function like mutes! However, the same apostle who penned these words also said things like: “each of you can prophesy”, “When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church”, “Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good”, etc. Clearly the concept he is teaching is not that women literally can not speak in the church. In my opinion he is applying the principle of “man as the head of woman”. Women are not to be the ultimate authority over men because this is not the way God designed the church or even the world to function. The practical application as it relates to five fold ministry (the governing body of the church) is that a woman may teach but can’t be the final authority over what is taught as acceptable doctrine. Likewise a woman may help pastor (my wife certainly does ) but she may not be the final authority as it relates to correcting the sheep. Another way to express what I am trying to say would be that women can function at all levels of ministry as long as they operate under the authority of male leadership and are not the head of the entity. Many people point to Debra as the bench mark for female leadership and yet when you examine her role closely I think you will find that she came to power much in the same way a Vice President does. A President abdicated his responsibilities through death, neglect, or absence and for that reason something unusual had to occur… the Vice President had to fulfill what was originally designed for a President.

I have spent years examining this concept and I am well aware that many disagree with me. My hope is that people will be able to consider it without lumping me into a broad classification that is inapplicable like a classification as a chauvinist. When people raise objections about equality, better covenants, or Joyce Meyer…. It is clear to me that they missed the point I was making.

I look forward to hearing everyone’s point of view on this subject. Perhaps we will all come to better understanding together. (I enjoyed reading the previous posts already). Lastly, I want to say that all of us work best when we are in the flow of authority (whether male or female) and I appreciate the Godly women in my life that have so greatly taught, encourage, and blessed me.

Love

E

[Stephen Richards]

Eric's reply says it about as Biblically correct and as heart felt as it gets when discussing women in ministry. I know from my own personal experience that God expects men to lead. God will judge men in that regard. It would be crazy to even think that the women of God that we know, and all of us are privileged to know a few great ones, could not if called upon lead in ministry. The burden of responsibility will land squarely on the shoulders of the men. This is the way God designed His system and the way He designed us. I would never want to go it alone without Darnell and I would never try to place on Darnell the responsibility God has placed on me. I have to stand when and where God desires. But we all know we would be lost without Godly women. God made sure it would take two of us.